Easily one of the more revered regional rock bands of the 1960's—in their home state of Michigan or, anywhere, for that matter—Tonto & The Renegades is one of the bands that has been up for possible election into the Michigan Rock & Roll Legends Hall Of Fame. The group's 5-star garage rock nugget 'Little Boy Blue' has already been recognized, via 2007 and 2008 voting, as #14 in The Top 25 Legendary Michigan songs, and drummer Tom Kirby now hopes to witness full blown election into the Hall. Though sometimes humbled by Tonto & The Renegades' lofty status among collectors and fans of '60's garage rock, Kirby is currently viewed as a foremost authority on the garage rock genre, and gladly shared his recollections on his group's music, on garage rock in general, and on The Renegades' enduring popularity.
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An Interview With Tom Kirby
60sgaragebands.com (60s): How did you first become aware of the Michigan Rock & Roll Legends Hall Of Fame?
Tom Kirby (TK): A friend of mine stumbled across the site and told me to check it out. I started communicating with the guy who runs the site after that. He actually teaches a class on ‘60s rock and roll at Saginaw Valley University. I was certainly surprised to see our name on the nomination list. That was in 2007. In 2008 our song ‘Little Boy Blue’ was nominated and voted in as the #14 all time Legendary Rock and Roll Songs by a Michigan artist. If you want to view the list of the Top 25 Legendary Michigan songs and the artists go to michiganrockandrolllegends.com and scroll down to the Legendary Songs button and click. It is a huge honor to be on that list with some of the greatest artists from Michigan who really played a big part in shaping the way music was progressing.
60s: Did you ever realize that one of your songs would become so highly regarded?
TK: As a band back in the ‘60s, every song we recorded we felt were as good as any blasting the airwaves. But, I actually believed that one of the songs on our second 45 was more likely to achieve some success. What's ironic about ‘Little Boy Blue’ being inducted is that the flip side, a ballad, ‘I Knew This Thing Would Happen,’ was the song that got the airplay and rose to #7 on the regional Top Ten lists. I really like ‘Little Boy Blue’ but never expected it to garner the legendary status it has gained around the world.
60s: Where does 'Little Boy Blue' rank in your personal assessment of the four songs that Tonto & The Renegades recorded?
TK: ‘Little Boy Blue’ was a fun song to play and received many requests from people attending our performances. I really didn't think it had what it needed to make it as big as it has become. There were so many good bands and great music back then I felt like it needed something more to put it up there with the hits at the time. Goes to show you how much I know.
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60s: Why do you think that particular song has become the tune that Tonto & The Renegades is best remembered for?
TK: Bottom line, it rocks. It's rough with a rebellious attitude. And the fuzz and scream and compact organ were a typical part of many songs back then. At this point in time, it's the only tune we recorded that deserves that banner considering the (garage rock) genre.
60s: Where were your four songs recorded? Do you have any special recollections of the recording sessions?
TK: We recorded all four songs at the Fenton Records Studio in Sparta, Michigan. The studio was in an old movie theater. We set up on the floor in front of the old movie screen and the sound booth was up where the projector would have been. The old theater still had a working pipe organ. Man, did that thing make some sound. The acoustics in the old theater were phenomenal. For both 45s, we set up just as if we were on stage and we played together to lay down the music track. Speaking of tracks, we recorded on 4-track tape. Once the music track was done, I was done. The other tracks were used for vocals, overdubs and any thing else we wanted to add such as another instrument. ‘Little Boy Blue’ was done in one take. The flip took a bit longer, but the whole thing was done in one day.
The second 45 was written and produced by Dick Wagner of The Bossmen/Frost fame. It took us two weekends to get these to songs down. Dick played the controlled feedback on ‘The Easy Way Out’ and Donny Hartman (also of The Bossmen/Frost) played the Harmonica on ‘Anytime You Want Some Lovin.’ To me, the most memorable moment was when we completed the final mix on ‘Anytime You Want Some Lovin’ and Donny came running down the aisle from the sound booth yelling, "That song’s got balls". It was great working with Dick.
60s: How did you hook up with Wagner?
TK: We were fans of Dick and The Bossmen long before we met him. We would go to every gig he would play in the Lansing area. Our home base was a dance club called The Sceen. We played there several times with The Bossmen. Dick really liked our sound and offered up a bunch of songs he had written for us to choose from to record. He and Donny were/are from Saginaw, Michigan and they drove down to Gary's (Tonto) house and strummed out and sang the songs he was offering. We chose the two we liked and we started practicing these songs. When Dick and we thought we had the songs down we went to the studio. The memory of the whole experience is very special to me still.
60s: What was it like working with Dick Wagner?
TK: It was very easy working with Dick. Our take on the songs was a bit different than his, but he allowed us a lot of flexibility regarding the sound of the songs.
60s: Ace/Big Beat Records has recently reissued an A2 compilation that features a previously unreleased version of 'The East Way Out,' as you noted written by Wagner but recorded here by his group The Bossmen. Were you aware of this version before the reissue? How do you think it compares to Tonto & The Renegades' version?
TK: No, I had no idea Dick had recorded this song. In fact, I don't know if he recorded it before or after us. I understand he did give us some credits on the Ace/Big Beat comp.
How does their version compare to ours? Geez…that's hard to answer objectively. But, in my humble opinion, our version rocks and his version is very plain sounding and a lot like The Beatles but with no punch. But, I'm kind of prejudiced in my opinion.
60s: Which of Tonto & The Renegades' song did the band perform during live performances? Which typically received the best reaction?
TK: Actually, we didn't play any of the songs on stage until they had been released. Of course, ‘Little Boy Blue’ was the most popular and requested song we recorded. The second was ‘Anytime You Want Some Lovin' from the second 45. This wasn't surprising because that song rose to number three on the regional Top Ten lists. It was a popular song and the song that Columbia Records wanted to sign us for.
60s: Although Wagner provided the group some material, Tonto & The Renegades also wrote and recorded their own songs. What kind of song-writing collaboration did the band have?
TK: Terry wrote ‘Little Boy Blue’ by himself, but we all were given artistic freedoms when it came to playing our respective parts. Gary and I co-wrote ‘I Knew This Thing Would Happen’ but again, all band members could suggest ways the song should be played. Actually, it worked out very well that way.
60s: Did members of Tonto & The Renegades write any songs that were never recorded?
TK: Yes. We had four or five songs written in the working stage and they were recorded on a reel-to-reel in Gary's basement where we practiced. No one really knows what ever happened to those tapes. If I remember correctly, there were two ballad type songs and three rock songs. In fact, to add to your previous question, there was complete collaboration on every part of these songs. I would have liked to have gotten those songs down on vinyl.
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60s: Due to your astute view on what it was like being in a rock band in the 1960's, you have become, to those in the know, a spokesperson for the garage rock genre. When you are asked, how do you define garage rock?
TK: First off, I think it's important that everyone realize that there wasn't anything called "garage rock" in the ‘60s. We played rock and roll. The term "garage rock" came about much later and is used by collectors and other ‘60's rock and roll enthusiasts to define a particular sound, which has the attributes of the term "garage." Typically, garage rock is raw, rebellious and unpolished teen music with fuzz, compact organ like Farfisa or Vox and some sort of wild scream. It just plain rocks.
I do understand the need for the narrow definition of “garage rock," "surf rock,” "Merseybeat," "Southern rock" or any and all of the other categories from a collectors’ perspective. But, the one problem I have with the term is that if a band plays one song that meets the "garage" definition it is automatically classified as a "garage band." I guess that's not all bad because many of the bands which are now called a "garage band" wouldn't ever be heard at all if it weren't for that recognition. I believe that a band that played one song that meets the "garage rock" definition doesn't make that band a "garage band." Sure the song is "garage rock," but what about all the other songs a band recorded that don't fit into that category? Only one of our songs is called "garage rock." If we had recorded one song with a twang would we be categorized as a country band? If we recorded one song with a West Coast sound would that make us a "surf rock" band? No, it wouldn't. A song can be defined in one of many genres but the bottom line is that bands back then played rock and roll.
60s: How would you describe Tonto & The Renegades to those who never heard the band?
TK: I would have to say our music was in an evolutionary stage. Everybody was, and the music of that era reflects the ever-changing environment. As a band, you either grew with the movement or you were forgotten.
60s: Is there any other Tonto & The Renegades news or events that you'd care to share?
TK: As a matter of fact, there is a full-length feature film documentary called Teen-A-Go Go. I was filmed and recorded for this and they have our (songs). It is supposed to explore the grassroots music movement at that time. This movie is intended to show bands of that era from around the country that played as good or better than many who were (considered) the "top bands" at that moment. The thing is these great bands didn't get that one big break they needed. I only hope that Tonto and The Renegades’ music leaves some sort of impression which will be enjoyed by ears for years to come.
60s: What would it mean to you personally to have Tonto & The Renegades voted into the Hall in 2010?
TK: I would be very elated to have the honor of appearing on the list of Michigan Rock And Roll Legends. Right now, that would be a dream come true after 40 some years. And to think you all like our music this many years after the fact. That's just incredible to me. Thank you all.
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